Vocabulary vs. Grammar: What's More Important

[RobertX]

I'm taking another stab in re-learning French and would like some advice.

When learning any other foreign/official language, what is the most important aspect of learning that language: the vocabulary or the grammar.

Few years ago, I was trying out French, I was trying to understand the grammar. There was a blockade: I can't find a way to use the grammar in daily life without learning enough words to do it. I was reading off some book for reference and I almost killed myself.

I understand that immersion important when learning any language, but when I'm living in a Canadian province that speaks English primarily, who can help me? Where would I find immersion.

So I decided to ask you smart people about this issue, and hope I can get some insight of my dilemma.

[dueda]

I don't exactly classify as "smart people" but having lived abroad and learning three or four languages the hard way, here's my opinion:

Vocabulary, as your experience show, is essential to start learning. Many concepts depend on comparing and associating words, and when and how to use them, more than rules. Keep in mind language isn't an exact science and change with time, thus rules may apply to some instances and not to others.

The more words, meanings, and how to use them, the more you understand a language and naturally will use it properly "without thinking". Grammar, of course, is important for formal communication, both spoken and written, but that's a second step. For now, focus on being comfortable with your "Ooh la la!"

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PS:

On a side note - Except for the compound negative ne-pas, French is essentially Portuguese with different sound (vowels in prefixes/suffixes), more like a "sweetened and sophisticated melodic Spanish"; and some English speakers think of those languages as the most complex in the world - Which is not true when compared to many others.

[RobertX]

Very insightful, dueda, thanks!

Besides English and Portuguese, what are the two other languages do you know?

I know a lot of words in French, as those words are learned in grade school. I know how to count to ten, I know basic words about the human body, and I know how to sing the alphabets song in French. Yet, I can't speak it properly since I don't know the grammar.

I regret not learning French in high school as my parents got me into special needs instead. I had no need for "needs" anyway, and I felt patronised. The biggest loss of all is that I didn't take the chance to convince those guys to give me back my French classes. Well, it won't stop me now.

Life goes on.

Interesting note about French in the side note, dueda. I hear from a friend that Spanish accents differ from nation to nation, including Spain, For example, Spain's Spanish is fast, while Mexico's Spanish is like singing. How do you attest to this?

EDIT: When reading several texts on the subject, how do you recommend that I approach this?

[dueda]

I learned South American Spanish at age 2, as my family traveled around. Later I also learned a bit of Japanese and Italian (that was long ago). But I was being exposed to it, not learning; it is hard to learn something when you're lazy, don't take time to study, with people speaking other languages you already know, and only eventually interacting with the natives or watching their TV - or read a lot of comics, as the pictures help understand the text, as I did.

French: I had a bit at 101 and wanted to pursue it, but most schools offer only English - It must be part of an evil plan for world domination. It's a well structured language, but for my works it wasn't needed.

Spanish: Argentina, Chile, Uruguay; those were soft and similar, but Paraguay is a little "harder" (like a soft German), depending on who and when you're talking to. Later I had contact with Bolivian, Peruan, Honduran, Salvadoran, Philippine, and others, and all sounded much alike, but they clearly noted I speak like an Argentinian (both accent and vocabulary). From TV and movies I can say Cuban and Mexican accents are by far the most different from what we see down in Latin America. As a rule of thumb, the more to the north of America, the harder it gets. But Spain itself has very different regional accents. As Portuguese.

One thing you'll realize after listening enough dialects and accents, is that speed and vocabulary are the key points:

- If a dialect has too different grammar or vocabulary variations, you won't get the meaning of half the message, if any. So vocabulary is a first as you can try to "assemble" whatever the phrase means.

- If a person speaks too fast and/or with too many contractions/phonetic changes (like b->v, a->e, , em->inh, um->'m) you'll hear only garbled chicken cough. About that there's nothing to do but politely asking the guy to come again, slow. It takes time to train your ears (brain actually) to decode the new patterns.

I remember when I was in USA and couldn't make head or tails of what the people said. TV is waa'y t' dffr(en)t th'an real(I)ty. So you can start with the basics but soon enough should change to "day to day" media, those without the perfect voice actors. More Youtube than National Geographic voices, so to speak.

Bon chance!

[RobertX]

Thanks for the tip, dueda.

Question: for my downloads, would it help if I put the choice subtitle into the video so I can learn how to read the language or is reading just half the battle?

Merci beaucoup, mon cochon petit!

[dueda]

Focusing on the subtitles takes my attention from the audio and the movie itself, and reduces the learning; it's my last resource.

I try to get the real deal with the audio only, even if I've to play and pause every each phrase. When I can't figure something, I flash the subs just for that sentence, but in some cases I must go back until some sense comes from the words - This happens a lot on poor, rushed translations made by some "sub racing" groups.

Of course, using the subs or other transcripts is useful to learn the text form; but you must choose one; usually trying to learn both at once is harder, and most quick methods I've seen use text form as a support tool for the audio-visual, practical approach.

[ill88eagle]

There are tons of awesome french movies. Watch them more than once. First time with english subs- then no subs on the rewatch. Short list of recommendations: Nikita, Le grand Bleu, Delicatessen, La Cité des Enfants Perdus, Betty Blue- and then theres Gaspar Noel's movies if you're in a selfdestructive mood.

Also: If you have a smartphone you can install duolingo and learn a lot of french that way

As for vocabulary vs. grammar, I agree with Dueda. Look at it like building a house: Words are bricks, grammar is the cement. You need both, but you wont build anything out of cement alone.

As a side note, french is probably the worst of the latin languages, as in a multitude of grammatical exceptions and different sounds of the same vowel with seemingly no logic to it (like english btw), where as spanish, italian and portuguese are all pretty damn straight forward.

Oh and latin grammar takes some getting used to. Focus on the conjugation of the verbs, especially the irregular ones (etre, avoir, etc...)

[RobertX]

Very insightful, il88eagle.

I'll be sure to follow your advice.

Note though, that I have English (i.e. USA) movies that have the French audio track. Are those helpful?

[LZA]

What do you think of Rosetta Stone? I tried learning Spanish and Italian at the same time one (since I noticed a lot of similarities in them), but that fell through... I needed a practical practice of it and I was only able to converse somewhat with my Spanish neighbors... I never thought of relating words I know with movie subtitles.

Maybe even an English movie with foreign subtitles to see sentence structure, etc...

To answer your question. I voted for both, for reasons Eagle and Deuda explained. Even only knowing English, I know you kinda need a mixture of both to make it work.

[ill88eagle]

Very insightful, il88eagle.

I'll be sure to follow your advice.

Note though, that I have English (i.e. USA) movies that have the French audio track. Are those helpful?

It will work if you know the movie already, more or less what this person is saying at what time etc. The idea is to follow a movie you are already familiar with but in french so you will get the phrases and words

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Maybe even an English movie with foreign subtitles to see sentence structure, etc...

This too is a good idea