Why The US Government Should Respect The Privacy Rights Of Non-Americans
#1
From Techdirt

After Judge Leon's ruling against the NSA on Monday, Tim Worstall pointed out that the ruling really meant that the NSA could continue to spy on 6.7 billion non-Americans.This is a point that has come up a few times (especially from non-Americans).While we argue over these programs, much of the focus has been entirely on the issue of whether or not the NSA can spy on "US persons" or not, and much less attention has been paid to the question of foreigners.The basic argument there is pretty simple: the 4th Amendment applies to Americans.Everyone else isn't covered by that, and if they have a problem with the US spying on them, they should take the issue up with their government, who can take it up with the US.

Of course, reality is a lot more complicated than that. nd that's partly why it was a nice surprise in the report from the White House task force reviewing these surveillance programs to not just focus on the privacy of Americans, but also on how it should deal with surveillance on non-US persons. There are a variety of details, but here's the executive summary version of what the report recommended:

Significant steps should be taken to protect the privacy of non-US persons. In particular, any programs that allow surveillance of such persons even outside the United States should satisfy six separate constraints. They:

1. must be authorized by duly enacted laws or properly authorized executive orders;
2. must be directed exclusively at protecting national security interests of the United States or our allies;
3. must not be directed at illicit or illegitimate ends, such as the theft of trade secrets or obtaining commercial gain for domestic industries;
4. must not target any non-United States person based solely on that person’s political views or religious convictions;
5. must not disseminate information about non-United States persons if the information is not relevant to protecting the national security of the United States or our allies; and
6. must be subject to careful oversight and to the highest degree of transparency consistent with protecting the national security of the United States and our allies.

We recommend that, in the absence of a specific and compelling showing, the US Government should follow the model of the Departmentof Homeland Security and apply the Privacy Act of 1974 in the same way to both US persons and non-US persons


This is actually a pretty big deal. Jennifer Granick, over at the Just Security blog does a good job explaining why this issue matters so much, and why those who insist that foreigners are on their own are missing the point.

Foreigners’ privacy is essential to American interests. We’ve learned that National Security Agency (NSA) practices which purportedly target foreigners nevertheless directly harm Americans’ privacy. This is because, as the Review Board says, “traditional distinctions between ‘foreign’ and ‘domestic’ are far less clear ... than in the past, now that the same communications devices, software, and networks are used globally by friends and foes alike.”

She goes on to describe how the NSA effectively uses some loopholes in the law to use this ability to spy on any non-US person to actually collect a ton of info on Americans as well.But it goes beyond that.It should be a fundamental recognition that treating others badly mean they're likely to treat you badly in return.Stomping all over the privacy of the rest of the world creates massive headaches for Americans as well, because it makes us all targets.Showing a modicum of respect for others makes it more likely that they'll show some respect back.

Granick highlights how not respecting the privacy of foreigners is clearly bad for US businesses, democracy and internet freedom:

...unfettered surveillance of foreigners is bad for U.S. business and a blow to free expression and democracy movements around the world. Without question, the role of Internet firms, especially those based in America, is a net plus for democracy abroad. Yet, unfettered spying has driven the EU to call for localization of services, which plays right into the hands of nations who want more control over the Internet within their own borders in order to censor, spy on, and control their citizens.

But I'd take it even further.Arguing that we can ignore the privacy of foreigners is akin to extreme (and economically illiterate) people who insist that "free markets" and "capitalism" mean that you should only look out for yourself, and not care about others.But that ignores the basic transaction costs in everyday life built around relationships and trust.People who always look out for themselves only, cut themselves off on the (massive) benefits of being able to work together to achieve more as a team.The same is true here, but on a larger scale.Arguing that we have no duty to care about the privacy of others leads us to a world in which we're pissing off 6.7 billion people that Americans need to interact with in a variety of different ways, both personally and in business, for no good reason at all.

It's a global society, and part of that means recognizing that you have to treat people beyond your borders with respect if you want any respect to come back to you.Recognizing that they have some basic rights to privacy seems like a good place to start -- and so it's great that the task force didn't ignore it completely.

The real question, though, is how the President and the White House will respond, and whether or not it will actually agree to such a proposal.



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#2
Unfortunately this would be closing the barn door after the horses have bolted. Even if the US did stop dissing everybody in the entire world, which it won't, nobody would believe it. Squandered trust is very hard to rebuild.

Equally unfortunately, US politicians know that, so they won't even bother trying.

And, as pointed out above, that will provide them with the loophole they need to justify (in their own minds) continued dissing of everybody in America as well.
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#3
Quote:Stomping all over the privacy of the rest of the world creates massive headaches for Americans as well, because it makes us all targets.Showing a modicum of respect for others makes it more likely that they'll show some respect back.

I agree. Suspicion of the U.S., IMO, now exceeds suspicion/mistrust of the likes of North Korea, Iran etc by non-Americans world wide. Irans recent change of tact is a case in point.
The west is warming to Iran over the past 12 months or so because of (And time will tell) they're willingness to be open and honest. I think that Obamas' hand shake to Castro at Mandelas funeral was a step in the right direction (And maybe in the hope he'll talk to Putin to get Snowden) but hey, i'm a cynic.

9/11 was a turning point for the U.S. and rightly so. But i think that how they're going about homeland security and international relations is a cluster fuck of the highest proportions.

You got there before me NIK. But my sentiments exactly Smile
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#4
Techdirt has already run a couple of stories about the longer-term damage the recently-revealed activities of the NSA are likely to have on the US computer industry. Bloomberg is reporting on how the growing distrust of US services is taking a new form:
Quote:Some companies are apparently so concerned about the NSA snooping on their data that they're requiring -- in writing -- that their technology suppliers store their data outside the U.S.

In Canada, a pharmaceutical company and government agency have now both added language to that effect to their contracts with suppliers, as did a grocery chain in the U.K., according to J.J. Thompson, chief executive officer of Rook Consulting, an Indianapolis, Indiana-based security-consulting firm. He declined to name the companies, which are using Rook to manage the segmentation and keep the data out of the U.S.
Significantly, that was before Der Spiegel detailed the incredible range of backdoors and vulnerabilities that the NSA is able to exploit in key software and hardware. As well as being terrible news for our privacy and freedom, this is likely to have huge knock-on consequences for the US computer and communications industries. Even though many of the companies named in the Der Spiegel piece have been quick to deny that they had any knowledge of the backdoors, their products are now inevitably tainted by the suspicion that they are compromised, and therefore cannot be trusted.
Some worry that the damage runs even deeper than a few tarnished brands. For example, the well-respected investor Michael Dearing has written an excellent post expressing his fears that:
Quote:the NSA's version of patriotism is corroding Silicon Valley. Integrity of our products, creative freedom of talented people, and trust with our users are the casualties. The dolphin in the tuna net is us -- our industry, our work, and the social fabric of our community.
As he explains:
Quote:Billions of people let Silicon Valley into their daily lives and they hug it close. They trust our products to find information, to get work done, to talk to each other, to buy and sell stuff, and to have fun. That trust is a decades-old endowment built up by inventor-founders from Robert Noyce and Gordon Moore through to the present day. The magic of compound growth works in our favor when trust is accumulating. But now we are making trust withdrawals every day as people around the world learn how the NSA has woven surveillance, search, and seizure into and around our products. This is the painful flip side of compound growth: the trust withdrawals compound too.

Silicon Valley's promise to people is simple and compelling: "We'll build a bunch of things. Try our work; keep what you love, dump what you don't love. We'll learn from it and build on the stuff that you like best." Sadly, the NSA undermines the promise at its foundation.
What that means is that the true cost of the NSA's reckless and illegal attempts to "collect it all" and "get the ungettable" may turn out to be not "just" tens or even hundreds of billions of dollars in lost business, but the far more serious loss of trust in Silicon Valley itself.



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#5
I didnt read the entire post, but i believe that a government can spy on anybody it wants thats outside its country. But never for anyone inside its country. Including non citizens.
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#6
You should read the entire post, because you've totally missed the point. Yet you, and the American economy ie. the American people, will suffer as a result of the NSA's actions whether you understand the reasons or not.
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#7
America is already a worthless piece of shit country anyway. Theyve already given up all their rights and its run by banks. There is no hope.
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#8
(Jan 10, 2014, 17:05 pm)Hawk Wrote: America is already a worthless piece of shit country anyway. Theyve already given up all their rights and its run by banks. There is no hope.
sadly your right on that but I only pay in cash not credit so banks don't run me also I live on reservation land (10 cents a acre)... so the USA is on its own....
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#9
Whiles the actions of the NSA where being reviewed , they where launching a Top secret Satellite on how to penetrate un-accessible surveillance avenues. Even if a solution if found for these indiscretions , they are a step ahead of that solution.

A goat is always a goat, even if you put a tie around its neck.
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#10
(Jan 11, 2014, 07:31 am)ddoking007 Wrote:
(Jan 10, 2014, 17:05 pm)Hawk Wrote: America is already a worthless piece of shit country anyway. Theyve already given up all their rights and its run by banks. There is no hope.
sadly your right on that but I only pay in cash not credit so banks don't run me also I live on reservation land (10 cents a acre)... so the USA is on its own....

That cash is just dirty paper. losing its value every day.
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