New Season of MST3k Crowdfunding has failed.

[raymond marble]

i prefer crow t robot to tom servo.  COME AT ME SNOWFLAKES.

I prefer Connie Marble's hair color to Raymond's. COME AT ME SNOWFLAKES.

try as you may you will not divide connie and me.  we are eternally united through an invisible core of finely woven filth.

[SuspiriaTrumpsItFollowsCrap]

Honestly, no politics are required here. Most of the original MST3Kers were older than GenX; a “bridge generation” or “younger boomers”. They grew up with certain things in the theatre, or on the telly, as did Gen X, and as did Gen Y, and now, Gen Z.  The problem was not with the respective age of any current MST3K writers or their generations; it was w/their “subset” of the generation. Trace and Frank were not “hippies”, albeit appreciating a lot of what the [original] hippies supported. Same with Bridget, but from the “other side of the political pendulum”. The bad jokes don’t come from Gen X; they come from slackers (a subset of Gen X). The bad jokes don’t come from Gen Y; they come from millenniwanks (another subset). This is now [sadly] true of Gen Z. It’s a thought-process (or lack thereof) inherent in creating a good joke, or bad one, and that has nothing to do with physical age; it has everything to so with “is the worst thing that happened to you this month involve some bad comments on instascam or “Not receiving nutmeg *plus* cinnamon in your latte?”.

Nothing *but* the writing matters to MST3K; it’s about the JOKES. The jokes are written (or mainly written), so there’s plenty of time to make them work. *If* the writers, between 19-59, have the where-with-all to make working jokes. Joel merely needs to wait to hire a smaller team of writers, *ignoring* politics, to “make it work”.

[drakkenzero]

Nothing *but* the writing matters to MST3K; it’s about the JOKES.

I may have a controversial take here, and I don't desire to get involved in... whatever that was that was happening on pages 4-6 or so... but I think the "joke" writing for the new MST3K was fine.  They aren't always going to be winners, and not every joke is for every person, I get all that.  The thing that's really let me down since the return of the show has been the out-of-the-theatre jokes, the host segments and the characterizations of the Bots/Mads/Hosts.  Specifically, how unbalanced, unnatural, and inorganic it's been.

The reason MST3K still hit for so many people, and why there was definitely a space for it in a world where Rifftrax and The Mads and all the fan riffers out there already have grown into the space was that MST3K created *characters* instead of just having comedians delivering movie jokes.  There were situations - Tom Servo's underwear collection, Crow's nearly unwavering support for Kim Cattrall, Gypsy being motherly while also done with it all.  And while I actually prefer the writing of the earlier seasons for the jokes, I like the host segments post-Joel a lot better, even into the SciFi era.  They weren't just puppeteers holding puppets or the same puppeteers wearing weird costumes, they written characters with personalities and likes and dislikes.

The Netflix Seasons were... almost entirely about The Mads.  Jonah (the character) is basically just there, like someone ordered one unit of "white guy" from a bulk wholesaler and that's what showed up.  And there's never even an attempt at an explanation as to where the new Servo and Crow came from, or an attempt to flesh them out, define them more.  Servo, Crow, and even Jonah are just hollow ciphers to deliver the jokes.  If it had kept going on for long enough, they might've eventually gotten around to it, but they were never given the room and time to grow, never given the focus, not the stars in their own show.

And then the Gizmoplex season doubled down on that by introducing MULTIPLE Servos and Crows.  They could've given them different paint jobs, different designs, different names, and let them all be their own thing - and imagine the fan fun that would cause at conventions!  But instead they were just like "yeah there are a bunch of them" and didn't bother to go further.

Ultimately, my problem with the new season, and why I personally am not surprised that the most recent crowdfunding failed, is that it feels like they misunderstood their own core mantra.  We, the audience, are the ones being invited to "repeat to ourselves, it's just a show, we should really just relax" - to suspend our disbelief and accept some of the more unrealistic parts of the show's conventions.  But it wasn't an open invitation for them to just... be lazy and shitty with their character writing.  We were supposed to relax about the show's setting - not them.

If you think I'm wrong... tell me one thing about Servo or Crow from Seasons 11-13.  Tell me a view they expressed, a like or dislike, a single through-line that was mentioned more than once.  A collection, an interest, a hobby.  Anything they did off-screen that didn't explicitly revolve around riffing a movie.  And not just Jonah's bots, Emily or Joel's copies too.

[ageekyguy]

Nothing *but* the writing matters to MST3K; it’s about the JOKES.

I may have a controversial take here, and I don't desire to get involved in... whatever that was that was happening on pages 4-6 or so... but I think the "joke" writing for the new MST3K was fine.  They aren't always going to be winners, and not every joke is for every person, I get all that.  The thing that's really let me down since the return of the show has been the out-of-the-theatre jokes, the host segments and the characterizations of the Bots/Mads/Hosts.  Specifically, how unbalanced, unnatural, and inorganic it's been.

The reason MST3K still hit for so many people, and why there was definitely a space for it in a world where Rifftrax and The Mads and all the fan riffers out there already have grown into the space was that MST3K created *characters* instead of just having comedians delivering movie jokes.  There were situations - Tom Servo's underwear collection, Crow's nearly unwavering support for Kim Cattrall, Gypsy being motherly while also done with it all.  And while I actually prefer the writing of the earlier seasons for the jokes, I like the host segments post-Joel a lot better, even into the SciFi era.  They weren't just puppeteers holding puppets or the same puppeteers wearing weird costumes, they written characters with personalities and likes and dislikes.

The Netflix Seasons were... almost entirely about The Mads.  Jonah (the character) is basically just there, like someone ordered one unit of "white guy" from a bulk wholesaler and that's what showed up.  And there's never even an attempt at an explanation as to where the new Servo and Crow came from, or an attempt to flesh them out, define them more.  Servo, Crow, and even Jonah are just hollow ciphers to deliver the jokes.  If it had kept going on for long enough, they might've eventually gotten around to it, but they were never given the room and time to grow, never given the focus, not the stars in their own show.

And then the Gizmoplex season doubled down on that by introducing MULTIPLE Servos and Crows.  They could've given them different paint jobs, different designs, different names, and let them all be their own thing - and imagine the fan fun that would cause at conventions!  But instead they were just like "yeah there are a bunch of them" and didn't bother to go further.

Ultimately, my problem with the new season, and why I personally am not surprised that the most recent crowdfunding failed, is that it feels like they misunderstood their own core mantra.  We, the audience, are the ones being invited to "repeat to ourselves, it's just a show, we should really just relax" - to suspend our disbelief and accept some of the more unrealistic parts of the show's conventions.  But it wasn't an open invitation for them to just... be lazy and shitty with their character writing.  We were supposed to relax about the show's setting - not them.

If you think I'm wrong... tell me one thing about Servo or Crow from Seasons 11-13.  Tell me a view they expressed, a like or dislike, a single through-line that was mentioned more than once.  A collection, an interest, a hobby.  Anything they did off-screen that didn't explicitly revolve around riffing a movie.  And not just Jonah's bots, Emily or Joel's copies too.

I generally agree with you, but the way I look at it is in old-MST, it had the vibe of three people (well, 1 person + bots) hanging out together watching a movie.  New-MST, especially the start, felt like it was just three individuals slinging jokes at the screen that just happened to be watching the same movie.  It didn't have the same level of interplay between the characters during the riffing that it used to.  It did improve on that front a bit as things went along, but it was still obvious that the sheer volume of writers involved sort of stripped the character out of the riffers since there were so many different voices (both on the page, and out of the bots).  

Basically, the individual jokes are fine, but the bigger-picture characterization and comradery just isn't there.

[jhs39]

Nothing *but* the writing matters to MST3K; it’s about the JOKES.

I may have a controversial take here, and I don't desire to get involved in... whatever that was that was happening on pages 4-6 or so... but I think the "joke" writing for the new MST3K was fine.  They aren't always going to be winners, and not every joke is for every person, I get all that.  The thing that's really let me down since the return of the show has been the out-of-the-theatre jokes, the host segments and the characterizations of the Bots/Mads/Hosts.  Specifically, how unbalanced, unnatural, and inorganic it's been.

The reason MST3K still hit for so many people, and why there was definitely a space for it in a world where Rifftrax and The Mads and all the fan riffers out there already have grown into the space was that MST3K created *characters* instead of just having comedians delivering movie jokes.  There were situations - Tom Servo's underwear collection, Crow's nearly unwavering support for Kim Cattrall, Gypsy being motherly while also done with it all.  And while I actually prefer the writing of the earlier seasons for the jokes, I like the host segments post-Joel a lot better, even into the SciFi era.  They weren't just puppeteers holding puppets or the same puppeteers wearing weird costumes, they written characters with personalities and likes and dislikes.

The Netflix Seasons were... almost entirely about The Mads.  Jonah (the character) is basically just there, like someone ordered one unit of "white guy" from a bulk wholesaler and that's what showed up.  And there's never even an attempt at an explanation as to where the new Servo and Crow came from, or an attempt to flesh them out, define them more.  Servo, Crow, and even Jonah are just hollow ciphers to deliver the jokes.  If it had kept going on for long enough, they might've eventually gotten around to it, but they were never given the room and time to grow, never given the focus, not the stars in their own show.

And then the Gizmoplex season doubled down on that by introducing MULTIPLE Servos and Crows.  They could've given them different paint jobs, different designs, different names, and let them all be their own thing - and imagine the fan fun that would cause at conventions!  But instead they were just like "yeah there are a bunch of them" and didn't bother to go further.

Ultimately, my problem with the new season, and why I personally am not surprised that the most recent crowdfunding failed, is that it feels like they misunderstood their own core mantra.  We, the audience, are the ones being invited to "repeat to ourselves, it's just a show, we should really just relax" - to suspend our disbelief and accept some of the more unrealistic parts of the show's conventions.  But it wasn't an open invitation for them to just... be lazy and shitty with their character writing.  We were supposed to relax about the show's setting - not them.

If you think I'm wrong... tell me one thing about Servo or Crow from Seasons 11-13.  Tell me a view they expressed, a like or dislike, a single through-line that was mentioned more than once.  A collection, an interest, a hobby.  Anything they did off-screen that didn't explicitly revolve around riffing a movie.  And not just Jonah's bots, Emily or Joel's copies too.

I generally agree with you, but the way I look at it is in old-MST, it had the vibe of three people (well, 1 person + bots) hanging out together watching a movie.  New-MST, especially the start, felt like it was just three individuals slinging jokes at the screen that just happened to be watching the same movie.  It didn't have the same level of interplay between the characters during the riffing that it used to.  It did improve on that front a bit as things went along, but it was still obvious that the sheer volume of writers involved sort of stripped the character out of the riffers since there were so many different voices (both on the page, and out of the bots).  

Basically, the individual jokes are fine, but the bigger-picture characterization and comradery just isn't there.

Joel enjoys spending backer money way too much.  God only knows how much of the MST3K budget he keeps for himself but the cast, crew, writing staff, and assorted production credits at the end of each Season 13 episode is absolutely massive compared to the staff who worked on the Comedy Central and Sci-Channel versions of the show.  Someone said $600.000 per episode is cheap compared to a network show which is an insane comparison.   MST3K has about 15 minutes of Mads and hosts segments per episode--the rest is three actors telling jokes over a movie.  If you need to spend $600,000 per episode something is very wrong.

[Dr. Nobody]

Personally I thought Emily and the new Crow were great. Dr Mordrid was one of the top 3 funniest movie riffs I've ever seen!
It's a shame it has to end here.

[SuspiriaTrumpsItFollowsCrap]

Nothing *but* the writing matters to MST3K; it’s about the JOKES.

I may have a controversial take here, and I don't desire to get involved in... whatever that was that was happening on pages 4-6 or so... but I think the "joke" writing for the new MST3K was fine.  They aren't always going to be winners, and not every joke is for every person, I get all that.  The thing that's really let me down since the return of the show has been the out-of-the-theatre jokes, the host segments and the characterizations of the Bots/Mads/Hosts.  Specifically, how unbalanced, unnatural, and inorganic it's been.

The reason MST3K still hit for so many people, and why there was definitely a space for it in a world where Rifftrax and The Mads and all the fan riffers out there already have grown into the space was that MST3K created *characters* instead of just having comedians delivering movie jokes.  There were situations - Tom Servo's underwear collection, Crow's nearly unwavering support for Kim Cattrall, Gypsy being motherly while also done with it all.  And while I actually prefer the writing of the earlier seasons for the jokes, I like the host segments post-Joel a lot better, even into the SciFi era.  They weren't just puppeteers holding puppets or the same puppeteers wearing weird costumes, they written characters with personalities and likes and dislikes.

The Netflix Seasons were... almost entirely about The Mads.  Jonah (the character) is basically just there, like someone ordered one unit of "white guy" from a bulk wholesaler and that's what showed up.  And there's never even an attempt at an explanation as to where the new Servo and Crow came from, or an attempt to flesh them out, define them more.  Servo, Crow, and even Jonah are just hollow ciphers to deliver the jokes.  If it had kept going on for long enough, they might've eventually gotten around to it, but they were never given the room and time to grow, never given the focus, not the stars in their own show.

And then the Gizmoplex season doubled down on that by introducing MULTIPLE Servos and Crows.  They could've given them different paint jobs, different designs, different names, and let them all be their own thing - and imagine the fan fun that would cause at conventions!  But instead they were just like "yeah there are a bunch of them" and didn't bother to go further.

Ultimately, my problem with the new season, and why I personally am not surprised that the most recent crowdfunding failed, is that it feels like they misunderstood their own core mantra.  We, the audience, are the ones being invited to "repeat to ourselves, it's just a show, we should really just relax" - to suspend our disbelief and accept some of the more unrealistic parts of the show's conventions.  But it wasn't an open invitation for them to just... be lazy and shitty with their character writing.  We were supposed to relax about the show's setting - not them.

If you think I'm wrong... tell me one thing about Servo or Crow from Seasons 11-13.  Tell me a view they expressed, a like or dislike, a single through-line that was mentioned more than once.  A collection, an interest, a hobby.  Anything they did off-screen that didn't explicitly revolve around riffing a movie.  And not just Jonah's bots, Emily or Joel's copies too.

Eloquently put, accurately expressed.

[Otrader]

During work hours, I listen to classic episodes in the background. The great episodes like Werewolf, Alien From LA, The Screaming Skull, The Brute man among others were just awesome.  Imho, nothing from season 11 - 13 or Rifftrax will match the classic episodes.  Just my .02.

[WoodyNYC]

I wasn't going to weigh in, but honestly, I do have a bone or two to pick.

1st I am an avid MST3K fan.  When i heard they were working to bring it back, I was elated.  I gave big! I was pissed Netflix wouldn't carry it for a 2nd season.  So again I gave big. i loved the 1st season (season 11) and even though I had the Blu-ray episodes, I watched on Netflix in hopes to keep it going.  Season 1/11 was perfect...  You donate, get rewards, download the episodes.  Easy and streamlined.  Season 2/12 (The Gauntlet) seemed a bit rushed to me.  Good but not as good as the prior season..  Season 3/13 however was a hot mess.  I hated.. HATED the Gizmoplex, which was never laid out right from the start, and I spent more time trying to figure out where they moved stuff to so I can try to watch. It seemed to be just a money making scheme.. deviating from the core principles of 'share the tapes' great entertainment.  The addition of a 2nd host, 3 bots with very different voices and personalities, strange host segments... it  became bloviated, confusing and far less fun.  I have rewatched season 11/12 a dozen or more times by now.. season 13 still has episodes I haven't watched and don't feel motivated to watch.  I finally got used to the new crow, tom and gypsy and then there were more and I could not, no matter how I tried, connect to them fondly.  Same with Emily, sad to say. Not because she is a woman, but I think maybe because she was just thrown in there. More importantly, the writing was just... bad. There is no nice way around it.  It sorely missed Michael J. nelson, Kevin Murphy, Bill Corbetts, Frank Conniff and Trace Beaulieu writing/jokes.  I'm not dissin' Joel or any of the crew. I respect them. MST3K simply lost any magic for me in season 13... and I found myself regretting supporting it for all the $$$ I did.  When i received email about Kickstarter for a new season.. i debated for days and decided, I just can't.  The show diverted too far from funny and lovable... and that really saddens me.  I love Rifftrax and the Mads and even loved Cinematic titanic and The Film Crew.

If Joels pitch for season 14 was to get back to the core of MST3K and why we loved it so much, I would have taken the chance to support again for one more season.  The impression I had was it will just be more of the same confusion. The thing that ruined it the most was the Gizmoplex. It was unnecessary, unwanted, and a huge waste of donated money and our time.  I'm heart broken... because I loved MST3K so much.  It would have been better to end on season 12 with a high note, than to drag it down to such an unenjoyable mess.  Leave them wanting more, not make them sorry it continued and degraded.

[ageekyguy]

I wasn't going to weigh in, but honestly, I do have a bone or two to pick.

1st I am an avid MST3K fan.  When i heard they were working to bring it back, I was elated.  I gave big! I was pissed Netflix wouldn't carry it for a 2nd season.  So again I gave big. i loved the 1st season (season 11) and even though I had the Blu-ray episodes, I watched on Netflix in hopes to keep it going.  Season 1/11 was perfect...  You donate, get rewards, download the episodes.  Easy and streamlined.  Season 2/12 (The Gauntlet) seemed a bit rushed to me.  Good but not as good as the prior season..  Season 3/13 however was a hot mess.  I hated.. HATED the Gizmoplex, which was never laid out right from the start, and I spent more time trying to figure out where they moved stuff to so I can try to watch. It seemed to be just a money making scheme.. deviating from the core principles of 'share the tapes' great entertainment.  The addition of a 2nd host, 3 bots with very different voices and personalities, strange host segments... it  became bloviated, confusing and far less fun.  I have rewatched season 11/12 a dozen or more times by now.. season 13 still has episodes I haven't watched and don't feel motivated to watch.  I finally got used to the new crow, tom and gypsy and then there were more and I could not, no matter how I tried, connect to them fondly.  Same with Emily, sad to say. Not because she is a woman, but I think maybe because she was just thrown in there. More importantly, the writing was just... bad. There is no nice way around it.  It sorely missed Michael J. nelson, Kevin Murphy, Bill Corbetts, Frank Conniff and Trace Beaulieu writing/jokes.  I'm not dissin' Joel or any of the crew. I respect them. MST3K simply lost any magic for me in season 13... and I found myself regretting supporting it for all the $$$ I did.  When i received email about Kickstarter for a new season.. i debated for days and decided, I just can't.  The show diverted too far from funny and lovable... and that really saddens me.  I love Rifftrax and the Mads and even loved Cinematic titanic and The Film Crew.

If Joels pitch for season 14 was to get back to the core of MST3K and why we loved it so much, I would have taken the chance to support again for one more season.  The impression I had was it will just be more of the same confusion. The thing that ruined it the most was the Gizmoplex. It was unnecessary, unwanted, and a huge waste of donated money and our time.  I'm heart broken... because I loved MST3K so much.  It would have been better to end on season 12 with a high note, than to drag it down to such an unenjoyable mess.  Leave them wanting more, not make them sorry it continued and degraded.

Agreed on a lot of that, but I would suggest at least watching each episode of Season 13 once.  There are some decent ones in there that might click with you.  Doctor Mordrid and Munchie are both pretty good and I've gone back and rewatched them.  Also, The Mask has some really good 3D effects if you have the means to watch that version.  The riff is okay, too.

I still think that Christmas Dragon is by far the worst of the Christmas episodes, though.  The movie itself is bad, but not in a charmingly bad way like Santa Claus, SC Conquers the Martians, or even The Christmas That Almost Wasn't.  It's just boring-bad.  Add on top of that the plot heaviness of the episode with the riffers changing every act, and it's just not good.