New Season of MST3k Crowdfunding has failed.

[JusSonic]

Okay, enough already!!!!! 

I have been reading this thread and is appalled how folks are insulting the great Joel and dissing the seasons 11-13 of the show.

Joel has been the reason riffing stuff like Rifftrax, the Mads, and everything else did and this is the thanks he gets?!

I just happened to like the MST3K seasons and love the comedy as well as the recent season.

The reason the funding failed is because of bad timing, after the strikes and because it happened during the holiday seasons.

He will try again so chill!

[blondtampico]

Can't say I fully agree with this. I actually have a deep appreciation for crap movies as well as great ones, and I still love MST3K.

I'm with you. I love "bad" movies in their own right, and I also really love MST.

Not trying to say you aren't entitled to your preferences. But I think it is clearly a different vibe from the old show. The Mike Nelson character who, when asked what he wanted to see given the choice of any movie, picked Hamlet, may be someone who is interested in how "bad movies" as a phenomenon end up happening, but it's not someone who watches "camp" for "hidden value." The real Mike really hates it when movies are bad because he appreciates the value of things that are good, and I think that showed through in all the seasons where he was a major driver of the writing. Joel is a different kind of comedian. His background is magic and prop comedy. He doesn't seem that interested in art the way Mike is. This doesn't mean his style is wrong or he's a bad person, but it does mean that he isn't bringing that same sense of "we have a limited time on this Earth and the capacity for greatness and wasting those things on The Horror of Party Beach is in some sense sinful" that used to drive the mockery on the original show.

It's tied into the problem that other posts elucidate where the larger intellectual/cultural background isn't there anymore. A lot of geek media has this problem. When Marvel Comics got going in the 60s, it was created by well-read people who took inspiration from classic literature. When superhero comics started being written by people who grew up reading superhero comics, the originality and quality cratered for a long time. I don't want MST3K written by people whose entertainment horizons are limited to old MST3K episodes, and especially not people who think that Joss Whedon and JJ Abrams are the pinnacle of art.

[drakkenzero]

Okay, enough already!!!!! 

I have been reading this thread and is appalled how folks are insulting the great Joel and dissing the seasons 11-13 of the show.

Joel has been the reason riffing stuff like Rifftrax, the Mads, and everything else did and this is the thanks he gets?!

I just happened to like the MST3K seasons and love the comedy as well as the recent season.

The reason the funding failed is because of bad timing, after the strikes and because it happened during the holiday seasons.

He will try again so chill!

I will definitely give Joel credit - he was an innovator, a disruptor, and a visionary.  But that was over 35 years ago and he's mostly been coasting on that ever since.  Not that he hasn't tried other things, it's just none of them have ever had the ring of success that MST3K has had or have ever gotten the support from people like MST3K did.

It's like he's stuck in the weird center of the Venn diagram between Brave Little Tailor and Emperor's New Clothes.  He accidentally stumbled upon one incredibly successful formula, believed it when other people told him that made him a creative genius, and now cannot/will not back down or give up and go back to doing what actually works.

MST3K was originally founded on a series of interlocking compromises. The movies were not great because that was all the movies they could get. The special effects were not existent because that was all they could afford. The actors were local friends that Joel knew because that was all that were willing to show up. It was in this Nexus of compromise that MST3K grew into what it came.

But Joel is not a compromising individual. He wants to wait for a Best Seller (and will die angry about it), meanwhile, Rifftrax and The Mads and all the fan riffers that have followed in his wake have been banging out solid "Top 10/100" performances for decades now.  And because of his refusal to compromise on things that *do* make sense, he is forced to compromise on things that do not make sense. The amount of money they spent on printed out graphics and coming up with clever ways to hide the fact that they were in front of a green screen for Season 12 could have paid for ACTUAL physical sets three times over, especially if they were made the old SOL way (rating every single thrift store in a 20 mi radius and a lot of hot glue and caulk)

I've been in the trenches since Season 1 on The Comedy Channel.  I was so inspired by MST3k that I created my own movie riffing show on local TV in the late 90s, which I still continue to do to this day on YouTube.  I love the things Joel helped create.  But he's... lost, and won't listen when everybody is telling him this is not the way forward.  Is it pride?  Hubris?  Stubbornness?  I don't know.  But what it's not is MST3K.

[ageekyguy]

Can't say I fully agree with this. I actually have a deep appreciation for crap movies as well as great ones, and I still love MST3K.

I'm with you. I love "bad" movies in their own right, and I also really love MST.

Not trying to say you aren't entitled to your preferences. But I think it is clearly a different vibe from the old show. The Mike Nelson character who, when asked what he wanted to see given the choice of any movie, picked Hamlet, may be someone who is interested in how "bad movies" as a phenomenon end up happening, but it's not someone who watches "camp" for "hidden value." The real Mike really hates it when movies are bad because he appreciates the value of things that are good, and I think that showed through in all the seasons where he was a major driver of the writing. Joel is a different kind of comedian. His background is magic and prop comedy. He doesn't seem that interested in art the way Mike is. This doesn't mean his style is wrong or he's a bad person, but it does mean that he isn't bringing that same sense of "we have a limited time on this Earth and the capacity for greatness and wasting those things on The Horror of Party Beach is in some sense sinful" that used to drive the mockery on the original show.

It's tied into the problem that other posts elucidate where the larger intellectual/cultural background isn't there anymore. A lot of geek media has this problem. When Marvel Comics got going in the 60s, it was created by well-read people who took inspiration from classic literature. When superhero comics started being written by people who grew up reading superhero comics, the originality and quality cratered for a long time. I don't want MST3K written by people whose entertainment horizons are limited to old MST3K episodes, and especially not people who think that Joss Whedon and JJ Abrams are the pinnacle of art.

While Mike was head writer, he was still one voice among many in the room. Some of them, especially Frank, absolutely values "crap" movies and even finds things to love in the likes of Ed Wood films. Just like the writers occupied a pretty wide range of political stances, they also had a varied take on quality entertainment. The riffs were a product of that.

I could see the argument that the new MST writers (even with it being an insanely large number) are not as diverse in certain ways as the old crew as far as attitudes towards the films themselves.

[WakkoBlues]

Okay, enough already!!!!! 

I have been reading this thread and is appalled how folks are insulting the great Joel and dissing the seasons 11-13 of the show.

Joel has been the reason riffing stuff like Rifftrax, the Mads, and everything else did and this is the thanks he gets?!

I just happened to like the MST3K seasons and love the comedy as well as the recent season.

The reason the funding failed is because of bad timing, after the strikes and because it happened during the holiday seasons.

He will try again so chill!

Honestly if JusSonic is feeling this way, other people probably are too. I think for our communities sake we could benefit from remembering that some of these people are the uploaders that bring us hours of joy and their feelings do matter, and we don't need to make this a place they are stressed out to visit. Not saying we all need to agree, I personally have issues with Joel's strategies, but can see why someone would reasonably get sick of the way the tone is going between all of us.

[inelegy]

The way I see it, what has happened with MST is similar to what happens with many rock bands. Some bands have the good sense to call it a day. The Smiths would be a prime example of all parties walking away and never (so far) going back for the full-scale reunion nostalgia grift/easy payday. They had a (mostly) solid lineup that didn't waver much at all, produced some classic stuff, and then everyone basically moved on.

But with a lot of bands, as time passes, people come and go from a band and the dynamic is constantly shifting because that is simply the nature of the beast. They fire this guitarist and bring in some other guy, they get rid of a keyboard player who isn't fitting in and hire a guy that's a better fit. Eventually, if they make the right moves, a sweet spot is arrived at and for a short time produce they'll some of their best material. But this sort of band always falls apart, eventually leaving one or two members holding the legal keys to the brand. They need money, will hire whoever can play the parts, and then go out on the road to smaller and smaller venues, playing rickety-sounding versions of the classics to die-hard fans.

I'm a Yes fan, a band that coincidentally has been referenced several time in MST. For me, Yes' sweet spot was the period from 1971-1977 with a brief blip of greatness from 1980-1984 (give or take). Then things start falling irrecoverably apart; people quit or are fired, record companies no longer push them to greater heights, those who remain get old and no longer are as inspired to create the types of songs that made the band what it was or can play very well. Basically, time moves on -- which is OK and to be expected.

But a ghostly version of Yes persists to this day, driven by their dour '70s guitarist Steve Howe. And year after year, he and his band of ersatz also-ran Yesmen drag the carcass of Yes® out on the road to play the songs that he wants to play the way he wants to play them. Judging by the videos that pop up on YouTube, the shows come off as stiff museum pieces: sterile, lifeless facsimiles of something that's extinct. But certain fans will argue that the band is as great as it ever was, when this is clearly not the case. Just because you have some hired hands that know where all the notes go doesn't mean it's the same thing and will work just as well or resonate as it should with audiences.

I'm not going to get into the psychology of this, but just because it looks like Yes, moves like Yes, sounds a bit like Yes, none of this means that it *feels* like Yes.

There's a moment in the original "Cosmos" series by Carl Sagan where he dumps the exact chemical makeup of a typical human being into a container. For obvious reasons, a freshly-minted human does not suddenly manifest. Joel is and has been attempting this same sort of flawed alchemy for some time. Sure . . . it looks, moves, sounds, and possibly smells like MST, and it has legal ownership of the brand and is excited to sell you all manner of things explaining as much, but it sure as hell doesn't feel like MST.

For me, Netflix MST onward, Joel has surrounded himself with talented people who are capable and will do exactly what he says. But just as Jon Davison is not Jon Anderson, Geoff Downes is not Rick Wakeman, Billy Sherwood is no Chris Squire, or 2023 is not 1977, Joel will never recapture that magic "thing" that the old alchemy had during MST's heyday. Die hard true believer fans will justify and qualify and excuse but that doesn't mean it's working in a believable way.

I stopped giving Yes® my money and time 20-ish years ago. I'll occasionally check in and see how things are going and I've yet to be convinced that my choice to separate emotionally and monetarily was untimely. I've got a deep back catalog of Yes music that still resonates with me, and sometimes Jon Anderson or Trevor Rabin or Rick Wakeman will surprise me with a solo release or something seems to be authentic.

Similarly, I've got a deep back catalog of MST, Cinematic Titanic, and The Film Crew that I can always return to without giving Joel any financial encouragement. If the recent failed crowdfunding is an indication, many others feel the same. RiffTrax and The Mads are still making me laugh. They're not the same as the original, but on some level they still seem authentic and work for me well enough that I just don't need Joel's clumsy, poorly realized, and increasingly crass attempt at flogging the chronically-unwell gelding he calls Mystery Science Theater 3000 into life for another trot around the sidehacker track. Or something . . .

YMMV

Other than that, I have no opinion on the matter . . . lol.

[MATMAN]

[...] or the creeping political correctness. But for me it was the bad writing and the assumption that people would support anything, no matter how bad, with the MST3K logo attached.  

What political correctness caused people not to fund the new season?

Put a chick in it and make her lame and gay.

What a sad existence

My existence or yours?

[inelegy]

[...] or the creeping political correctness. But for me it was the bad writing and the assumption that people would support anything, no matter how bad, with the MST3K logo attached.  

What political correctness caused people not to fund the new season?

Put a chick in it and make her lame and gay.

What a sad existence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWhsjai-OVE

[NotRichBatman]

Matt McGinnis and the rest of Joel's harem wanted 4 million dollars for bad comedy writing at a time when most people are living paycheck to paycheck

edit: thanks to everyone who wrote very thoughtful comments. I enjoyed reading those takes as I do love MST and hope it survives this setback

[ageekyguy]

Matt McGinnis and the rest of Joel's harem wanted 4 million dollars for bad comedy writing at a time when most people are living paycheck to paycheck

edit: thanks to everyone who wrote very thoughtful comments. I enjoyed reading those takes as I do love MST and hope it survives this setback

I still can't believe that Matt was the sole face of Turkey Day this year. 48 hour marathon and Joel couldn't film at least a couple episode intros? I know the cast was unavailable, but they might have had access to the writers to introduce their individual picks by then, depending on when they filmed the bumpers..